by Ashley
Thank you, as always, for your many thoughtful comments on my August Debt Update. It has given me a lot to think about and I’ve made a decision that may shock and will almost certainly not be favored. Unfortunately, that may be a theme for today because the next post I have planned will probably be a bit controversial, too. So before I get into it I just want to preface this by saying that I really do appreciate all of the constructive criticism I have been given. I almost prefer the comments from those who disagree with me because they always support their opinions and allow me a chance to view the situation from a different perspective. Really, truly, thank you.
All that being said……let’s get into it.
There were a couple of comments on my last post, in which I asked for your opinions on paying the car versus student loans, that I wanted to respond to here for future reference.
- A few people of mentioned paying off the higher interest student loans to get rid of that line item on our list of debts. Using this as a reason to focus on the student loans really does nothing for me. The main reason is that I have a TON of student loans. The ACS loan in one, single $20,000 loan (the balance is actually more now because of accrued interest – recent debt update here). But Sallie Mae was a series of several $5,000-$10,000ish loans so there are a lot of them (about $66,000 worth). The reason I have separated the two is that they are the only ones with 8.5% and 8.25% interest rates. All the rest have the same interest rate (7%) so I have grouped them all together. But, basically, I just wanted to explain why the “lowering the amount of debts” rationale doesn’t really do it for me in reference to eradicating the student loans.
- Several people also brought up the extreme amount of car debt that we have (over 20 grand) and suggested selling the vehicle and downsizing. I’ve heard this advice before, but for some reason this time around it was a game changer. No, we do not have plans to sell the SUV (and I gave a good explanation of my thinking and rationale on the decision in the comments to this post, so scroll down and check it out if you’re interested). But I kept stewing over the decision to keep our car and the knowledge that many of you think it’s irresponsible and unreasonable given our other debts. Then it “clicked.”
Screw the license fees. Screw the student loans. Screw the difference in APRs and balances and all that stuff. This car debt is G.O.N.E.
I have to pay it off!!! Not only is it a huge monthly payment ($411/month), but it’s the principle of the thing. We can keep making minimum payments on my husband’s license. It makes no difference in our day-to-day lives. Plus we still owe $4,000 on it! And we owe roughly $5,000 on each of the higher-interest student loans. All together that’s $14,000! By the time we’re done paying for all that, we’d nearly own our car outright! We’re getting rid of the car debt now! If for nothing more than simply not having to justify why we have such a large debt in the face of our monstrous student loan debt situation.
Being as I am known to frequently re-write our plan of action, we’ll see how long this holds. But one thing everyone seemed to agree on in the comments was to focus on whatever we’re most passionate about.
I’ll tell you with 100% certainty what I’m most passionate about – owning our car outright! I want the title locked safely away in our home safe, not held by a bank somewhere. This is happening. It’s happening now. Prepare yourselves. : )
Just FYI – this was also part of the budget discussion that I had with the hubs on Friday. Still working on a budget update, and hope to have it up later this afternoon.
What debts are/were you most passionate about tackling and why? For those who are debt-free (or have paid many of your debts), which debt was most satisfying to pay off?
Hi, I’m Ashley! Arizonan on paper, Texan at heart. Lover of running, blogging, and all things cheeeeese. Freshly 40, married mother of two, working in academia. Trying to finally (finally!) pay off that ridiculous 6-digit student loan debt!
FWIW, if you already owned the car outright, I’d advocate for selling it. That is a lot of money to have tied up in once place. Completely unnecessarily. I share this just to be clear that it has less to do with the car debt itself and more to do with the amount paid for the vehicle. I think paying it off sounds like a mostly terrible idea, but you know, we all have to learn our own ways. Maybe you will feel differently when you have a paid off vehicle you can sell to pay off several smaller debts. OR maybe you are unwilling to downsize the vehicle now but would be willing to in an emergency.
I definitely appreciate the comment (like I said, I love hearing the opinions of dissenting views so I can see things from their perspective). I understand what you’re saying but I just have to respectfully disagree on this one. Given that we want to keep the vehicle forever (until it dies), I don’t think its an unreasonable debt. Of course, this is an opinion and we are all entitled to our own. You could be right that I learn from this situation down the road, or something could change if an emergency crops up. Only time will tell. Thanks, again, for your comment!
Woot Woot! I LOVE your enthusiasm/anger/passion to get rid of this debt! Now that you are laser focused (and not scattered in your debt focus) you will conquer this debt and be free from it very soon – great!!!!
I’m sure the debate will continue in the comments so I’d just like to explain why I agree with you on keeping the big vehicle/big asset instead of selling it, buying something cheaper/smaller and using the extra cash to pay off some debts.
We were in a similar situation 20 years ago – 3 kids under age 5 with lots of gear, etc…..we made the decision to buy a full size van and it was one of the best decisions we made for our family. We used that van for the next 18 years for family vacations, camping, loading up kids for soccer games, baseball games, girl scout trips, etc etc etc…..and eventually moved our oldest to college in it before it sadly bit the dust. We used every bit of space in it, have great memories of all the trips and fun we had, and always had the one reliable vehicle needed for a busy family (my husbands vehicle was the clunker). We couldn’t afford it when we purchased it (back in our pre-debt free days), but slowly paid off the loan, then used it debt free for 13 years.
I know this will make some people cringe, but I look at it as an “investment” for our family. No it didn’t make us any money and depreciated quickly, but it was an “investment” in our family life, fun, safety, activities, and beliefs….we believed in doing things together as a family, visiting extended family, camping, sports, etc…..it was also a safe vehicle for our kids to learn when they started to drive and became their vehicle to get to and from school…..we really did consider it a long term investment for our family during that season of our life.
Now – as empty nesters – we own two smaller/cheaper cars which work for us in this season of our lives, but still remember all the great times in that van!
So – my point – at this season in your lives, you need a vehicle that works for you and your family and your lifestyle. If your SUV is that vehicle then pay it off, use it, take care of it, and it will work for you for years to come.
End of novel:)
Wow, that’s incredible that you were able to keep the van for 18 years!!! That’s definitely our plan with our Ford Explorer – all along we’ve been planning to keep it forever (until it dies), which is why we want to take good care of it (regular maintenance, etc.). I think I’ve heard that the average length of car ownership is 5 years. If that were the case, then of course it would be more wise to have a cheaper vehicle. But since we do plan to keep it for the long haul (maybe even 18 years???) then I think it puts the debt in perspective. This is something we plan to keep long term.
First time poster here….
In my humble little opinion…I think you should decide on something and just stick to it. It almost sounds like the debt isn’t reducing fast enough for you or that you are easily bored with your current plan.
Myself, having paid off $95k of debt in 4 years, didn’t always like the plan we chose but once we settled on a payment plan/system the debt started melting away. That was enough for us to stay on track and keep motivated.
Thanks for the comment, especially since you’re a first timer! I don’t know that I would say I’m “bored” with the current plan…perhaps just indecisive. It was so easy at first because we knew 100% we would eradicate our credit card debt in order from highest APR to lowest APR (which is exactly what we did), but the remaining debt has so many factors to take into consideration: the emotional aspect, hugely different balances and APRs, different terms for possible deferment or forbearance if something awful were to happen. I don’t think its as cut and dry as the credit cards and there’s not one “right” way to do it, so I’ve kept flip-flopping. I do feel very committed to the current plan (focusing on the car loan), so I hope that passion will translate into rapid repayment!
I see. Makes sense. When we first started I found a free excel debt calculator that let us see the different methods and which way would be the fastest for us to reach our goal. It really helped a lot.
I HATED my car loan. Hated EVERY PENNY of that payment. Set an aggressive schedule and pay that sucker off. In fact, I bet the car title would be an excellent Christmas gift to you and your husband.
If I were in your position, I’d worry about the student loans last. Pay off the car, then the license fees and medical bills first and then tackle a student loan strategy. A few months isn’t going to make a huge difference, so I’m willing to bet you could be in a position to determine that strategy in less than a year.
That’s definitely how I feel about the car payment (HATE IT!!!) I’d gotten so used to having no payment with my previous car (a Kia Spectra I paid off in about 2.5 years, then had payment-free for another 4ish years). I’m ready to be car payment-free again!
I too have two small children (and two older ones) so I COMPLETELY understand the space issues. While I would not advise someone to go out and purchase a brand new vehicle, since you already own yours and are maintaining it, I say drive it till it bites the dust so you get your money’s worth! 🙂 You are doing fantastic and I am happy you decided to focus on ONE goal at a time. This will help you maintain your intensity to knock out even more debt.
Thanks Jen! Also – our car is new-ish (2011), but we bought it used in 2013. I’ve always read that a 2-year-old car is one of the best purchases since the biggest depreciation occurs during those first couple years. Of course its still a huge debt, but I just wanted to clarify that we didn’t purchase it brand new.
Yeah, I figured that it had to have been purchased used since every time I look for a used vehicle (SUV about two+ years old) it is in the range of $35,000-40,000.
When did cars get so expensive?! It’s crazy, isn’t it???
I am only going to speak generally here and not address the car/student loan situation specifically. I have mentioned this here before, so bear with me. I am completely gobsmacked by people’s choices today. I just don’t know why people have monstrous car loans, monstrous school debt that is not paying off career-wise, monstrous wedding costs etc.
Back when hubby and I were very young marrieds with two small children (mid 70’s), we had a disposable income of $350/month of which $158 went for rent. That means that we had $192 to pay for food, utilities, gas and incidentals. We had drained our savings to pay cash for a $500 car that was very economical. We had no credit cards and no debt. (We were also not college educated yet, but that came soon after for both of us, also with no debt) Now, before you say, “It was so much cheaper back then,” it wasn’t for us. It was a hard struggle to live on so little, but we did.
Am I a dinosaur? I don’t think so because our four kids also have no debt and all have advanced degrees. Just yesterday, I read on a blog about a couple with at least $60,000 in student loan debt who are who planning a vacation to Europe for about $5,000, but it will be OK because it is the “off season.” (They also had a $30,000 wedding.) Folks, I just don’t get it! When did deferring our wants and delaying gratification take the back burner in life?
So Ashley, sometimes I just don’t know what to say, and I’m sorry! I would be scared to death to have so much debt.
How do you propose getting an advanced degree without debt? Without parents to help, its pretty difficult. Also, the economy changed when Ashley was in school. She might have made different choices if she had known that our economy would take a huge hit and higher education with it.
I just get annoyed with comments that don’t have any helpful basis and are instead how well you did it. With $192 monthly in discretionary income, how did you pay for college?
Agree wholeheartedly. Comments like the one above are entirely unhelpful. Like it or not, the world has changed, and in ways that have nothing to do with price. What was once possible is not anymore. Blaming Ashley does not add anything constructive to the conversation. She’s trying to get out of debt now, and doing a great job of it.
My children (especially the two youngest) are the same age as many of the people here and have no debt. It CAN be done! Here’s how we did it. My husband went to school on the GI bill. Yes, he was a soldier. He also had scholarships and a few grants. He also worked. I babysat one extra child as well as taking care of my own family. We lived extremely frugally as in we were poor! After Hubby graduated and got a job, I started at the local community college while taking care of my family and doing part time work (such as data entry at home or working Sundays in a church nursery) I then transferred to a city university. It took me 7+ years, but I finished with a teaching degree and no debt.
Then, our kids were just about ready to begin. Three of our children received ROTC scholarships at excellent schools that paid for a great portion of their educations. They did very well in high school and applied for many scholarships besides the ROTC (which is need blind, by the way.) They all worked and my husband and I helped them too. (Having no debt ourselves was the answer!) Of course, those three ROTC kids had military obligations and entered the army as officers for four years after graduation. All four of our kids obtained their master’s degrees while working jobs that paid for all of it or partially paid so no debt there. And they all have accounting/finance degrees and have always found work.
Yes, the world is always changing, but you can still think outside of the box when it comes to education AND downsizing your lifestyle. There ARE people today still graduating without debt and living frugally! I stand by my comment that I am still flummoxed by the debt that some people have today and choices they made or continue to make. And I want to know–Where were the adults in their lives when these 17-year-olds were signing their lives away with student loans? That is the crux of the problem–parents, teachers, counselors who did not help these kids. Believe me, I feel sorry for all these young people who are burdened with this kind of debt.
Once again, your comment it neither helpful or constructive. Yes, some people are able to get scholarships and/or work their way through undergrad. Not all people. And if you recall, Ashley’s undergrad was paid for. Her student loans are from her PhD work, which is an entirely different situation.
Rather than say what Ashley should have done, let’s keep our comments relevant to what is actually happening in her life now. That ship has sailed, and harping on her about what she should have done will do absolutely nothing to assist her in where she is now.
Regarding the parent/teacher/counselor comment – I often give my step-Dad a hard time about this. He has a Ph.D and I have often (only half-joking) told him that he should have steered me away from this path! Why didn’t he step in??
The answer is that things were different in his generation. He got a Ph.D. and immediately landed a job in academia. In today’s market that is immensely unlikely (unless one is willing to relocate quite literally anywhere on the globe). I am not.
From another perspective, I have had an existential crisis about this myself. Currently I teach online, so it tends to be less personal. But in the past I have taught many, many face-to-face classes. I teach these kids, knowing full well that these kids are going to graduate with loads of debt and be unable to find employment in our field. They may continue their education by also going to graduate school, but then they’ll just accumulate even more debt and still be unlikely to land a position in our field. So do I have a duty to teach these kids that their degree is useless? How can I redirect my own students to different positions or different fields? If I were to successfully do this, then I would be out of a job (for, who would I teach?)!? It makes for a fun philosophical conversation, but its’ pretty scary that this is real life.
The market tends to greatly inflate prices on items that are easy to finance. The 3 prime examples in today’s market are houses, cars, and higher education.
Getting into debt is way easier than getting out of it. Education prices have greatly outpaced the rate of inflation for a long time. If your family isn’t paying for your degree, it’s harder and harder every year to get an education without debt. It’s not impossible, as you note, but it is definitely harder. Scholarships and grants don’t cover what they used to. Meanwhile, the need to have a degree or two to compete in today’s job market is also increasing. It’s an injustice in today’s society. While I applaud those who get a degree without debt, it’s not all that practical for many millions of students.
Auto loans are not as easy to defend, but by any measure, a reliable modern car is much more expensive than an average family can afford without debt these days. Thankfully they last longer. It’s possible to have a decent car without debt, but this too is a huge sacrifice for most people these days, especially young people starting out.
I can appreciate this comment. I think at the heart of it all, Financial Fan is telling Ashley that if she seriously hated her debt and wanted it gone today, she’d cut the cable, nix the gym memberships, stop eating out, go bare bones on groceries, sell the vehicle and by a cheapie, etc.
The above method would certainly open up a ton of cash flow. Enough to really erase the debt fast. However, Ashley has decided to extend the debt payoff timeline to be longer in order to keep her creature comforts. Will this always be the case? We’ll see. Ashley may decide as this process drags on to trim some of the extras. Or, she might maintain that the small price of the extras are worth the thousands extra she’ll end up paying in interest.
At the end of the day, I appreciate that Ashley is sharing this journey and open to all of the comments and advice we have for her.
I definitely appreciate the fear-factor. I think I had more fear of the credit card debt (and also of the car loan debt). For better or worse, I feel like my generation has had it ingrained in us that you go to college. That’s what you do. And unless one’s parents are generous enough to pay for it, you pay with student loans. Then you pay on those loans for the next 20-30 years. I’m not saying that’s a good way of living and our plans are to be debt-free WELL BEFORE that time-frame. I just think its a whole different mind-set, so people don’t think that student loan debt is that big of a deal. It’s “normal”, you know? I know I read in one of Dave Ramsey’s book (maybe Total Money Makeover? Can’t remember) how different things are now simply because of the availability of credit that wasn’t even an option just a few generations ago! You need a car? You go finance it. No one buys outright!! (of course, people do, but this is not what media/friends/family portrays). We’re not immune to this type of thinking. But I think simply being here as a blogger indicates my level of commitment to get rid of our debt.
I can absolutely attest to this. I didn’t have parents that taught me the value of paying things off with cash and I known that I think about I even had a class in high-school that taught us how to “buy” a car with financing (to teach about compounding interest, it was pre-calc). It wasn’t even an option to NOT go to college. And now here I am in the same boat as Ashley working diligently to cut the debt as quickly as I can. It really is a mindset- if you have it drilled into your head that debt is OK, you need to buys things with credit to build credit, it’s nearly impossible not to fall into that cycle. However, I can say I’m thankful for being in the situation I’m in (experience is the best teacher) to keep my children from falling in the same trap I did.
Sorry- I was thinking faster than my fingers could type- the 2nd sentence should read “…and know that I think about it…”
I totally agree about trying to view the situation as a learning experience so we can hopefully change the direction of the future generation(s). Right now, debt = normal. But that doesn’t have to be the case. We can teach our kids (or future kids) that they don’t have to follow this same path. There are other options aside from blindly accepting student loans (or paying tens of thousands for a wedding, etc etc etc)
Matt, I think this is so true today! My own parents were extremely frugal and taught us to be the same way. I am in no way criticizing Ashley for her debt pay-off. She is doing an awesome job. However, I am saying that the adults in the lives of the YOUNGER student need to be vigilant about how they are guiding and directing that young person’s life in regard to student debt.
For example, my younger sister has two sons of college age and one still in high school. As a divorced mom, she simply did not have the funds to help with college but she refuses to allow her boys to drown in school loan debt either. The oldest two have continued to live at home (my sister has remarried and the boys have a wonderful, supportive stepdad) and they are working a couple jobs to save up money. Now, the oldest saved enough and is in his second semester of the community college. It’s going to be cash-as-they-go. It may take longer, but who cares? For those of us “who have already sailed” and the debt is there, cutting expenses to the bone will help. Remember, it’s only for a season of your life.
Ashley, that is so true about credit availability. I recall years ago that a friend (who owned a lovely home) wanted to get a credit card. You had to jump through so many hoops in those days! Personal references and everything, and then the limit might be just $200. It wasn’t like it was with my kids’ colleges–tables set up for easy sign-up on campus along with free T-shirts.
Cosigning with ND Chic and Sara. I found this comment to be neither helpful or constructive; a congratulatory pat on the back to yourself. Is that what you need? *coffee house snaps* Now, keep it movin’.
Paying off the $22k you owe on the SUV seems worthwhile to me… what kind of SUV is it? How much is blue book value? I see that you have decided not to sell, but I can’t see all of the numbers involved. On the plus side: you seem to have a good income and are paying off these debts quickly, so perhaps you can pay it off sooner than later. One the minus side, an expensive car usually means expensive insurance, repairs and gas. Couldn’t you sell it and get a $10k van that you could use? I don’t remember the earlier discussion, but that is a lot of money tied up in a car. But you do seem to have weighed the pros and cons.
Its a 2011 Ford Explorer. Kind of blows my mind that its so pricey because I remember buying a brand new Kia Spectra (circa 2004) for $15,000. Brand new. And now a USED Ford Explorer runs almost double that! The Kelly Blue Book tends to be a bit “off” in my area. When we were searching for cars we noticed that vehicles tend to sell here (Tucson) for several thousand below KBB value. This worked out to our advantage when buying (for we paid thousands below the KBB price), but works against you when selling. I agree it is a LOT of money tied up in a car. A depreciating asset. But it has suited our needs well, and the insurance really isn’t that bad (we pay $90/month but thats for the Explorer AND my husband’s work truck).
Everyone made recommendations here and you finally made a decision that many people would disagree with. However, this is your life, your debt and your decision. So, I will not tell you again what I think was a better choice.
As for the debt that I hated: It was the Bank Loan for my rental property. I put down a huge chunk but had to borrow about USD 30,000 for three years. That debt made me itch from day one till I paid it down. Now I own the apartment free and clear and it is generating a small but stable income.
Wow, that’s fabulous!!! And being able to repay the loan in 3 years is great, too!! I’m scared of having to deal with rental property, but we would love to flip houses down the road (only when we can pay cash though!!)
I think paying off the car is worth it simply to free up $400 a month, with a having lower payments can be important on a smaller income month!
Very true! Someone said we could work to try to get the title as a Christmas present to ourselves. It would be tight to get it paid within 5 months, but I think it would be a fabulous gift! Plus, then our snowball (which is currently $1,000/month) will get the car payment added on top, bringing it up to $1,400/month. My student loans will be $500/month so $1400 = $500 = a monthly snowball of $1900!!! With that much for a regular monthly snowball (not even including any snowflake payments), we’ll be able to really start tackling the student debt head-on with a vengeance!
Sorry, that was supposed to say $1400+$500 = $1900 monthly snowball.
Congrats on making a decision Ashley. I know that paying off the car note is important to you and if that keeps you motivated, then good for you. I think you’ve been honest and transparent to date and that is appreciated. You’ve also asked for input and have taken that into consideration. In the end, it’s your decision and I am respectful of that. You have to keep yourself motivated to pay down debt and that’s not easy over the long haul.
I can understand where Financial Fan is coming from. I don’t think she is being unusually harsh, I think it’s just that she has a different perspective. Back then, many of us were very frugal because there weren’t any other options. We had to work to go to college or we didn’t go, period. I know I worked three jobs in the summer and full time while going to college and lived on $5-$10 a week spending money so it is difficult in general to look at anyone with massive student debt when I see so many college age kids with so much today….cars, going on spring break vacations, etc. (And you couldn’t get a sandwich for much under $10 for Sunday night dinner, which wasn’t covered under our meal plan.) Mind boggling. I didn’t have a car and had to take a bus or train home for the breaks or get a rid home until I met my college boyfriend who had a car and was wealthy. So yes, a different time for sure but many of us who went had a frugal mindset. When I looked at an advanced degree, I was accepted into graduate school however ultimately I chose to go to work since I didn’t have the money. That’s what we did back then when we didn’t have the money. Today, it’s very different for sure. I have a niece that went back to college after getting her BS degree and went to a top notch law school while working 30 hours a week at a job in her field. She recently graduated with a boat load of debt. It will take years to pay off that kind of debt. Is it worth it? It’s up to her really and not for me to say. My brother is a millionaire and I remember him telling me that he was astounded at the amount of her student loan debt. From my perspective, I think it would be very depressing to have student loan debt equal to mortgage debt and very hard to get out from under. I was fortunate in my corporate career to earn a very good living. Even though I gave up my career many years ago to care for my son, I still keep a budget and try to practice restraint. But I still can’t get over sometimes when I see a lot of student debt to be in total awe of it, almost like someone sucker punched me in the gut. I am not judging it’s just that’s is so mind boggling compared to how I grew up, that’s all.
Ashley I think you are doing a great job with your finances and really enjoy following your blog. As for students going to college with a “frugal mindset” these were the kids who constantly mooched off my children who had a car and never wanted to part with their money to help with expenses, even though they were never shy to ask for rides everywhere . Frugal parents should educate their children that they will be attending college without certain luxuries and they should never take advantage of those who have chosen to have a few extras.
Read some of the student loan horror stories on Reddit. $520,000 in debt for dental school? $175,000 for a worthless degree? I’m with Financial Fan and Mary on this. Yes, the whole education system completely sucks today. What we are doing to our young people is criminal. But I just can’t see how taking on a huge boatload of debt is going to solve anything. I see college grads with huge debt working at Whole Foods and young people with no debt working at Whole Foods. Who is really better off? Is the world really completely lacking in common sense with all these loans? Some of these young people feel so hopeless that they want to kill themselves.
The adults in their lives need to get their act together and offer better counsel than they have. Too many say that it is piece of cake to get loans but a life of misery paying them back. And please stop telling our kids that they need “luxuries” while attending college. No, they don’t. It’s a time to be poor (believe it or not, you can still have fun) and bite the bullet.
Yes, the loan situation is insane! I’ve heard it likened to the next housing bubble. Schools can keep hiking up rates because loan companies will keep dishing out the loans. Eventually its going to explode when students are unable to ever pay the loans back and the whole bottom of the “school bubble” is going to fall out. I have many, many friends who have this plan (never pay back their loans in full). Very sad and very scary!
Hey, it seems that Ashley’s husband has done quite well with his floor laying business. Kudos to him! No school loans for that, right?
Hey Fran! *waves*
That’s right, no loans for him : )
But to give an accurate picture, he’s been doing floors for over a decade (since he was 20 years old) and just started his own business about 3 years ago. The first 2 years were rough….lots of months where he spent more than he earned, lots of learning experiences, etc. This has been the first year where his business has really been consistently profitable. So it was certainly not an overnight success story.